Can John Shurna be Kevin Coble?
Better question: Is he already?
For the most part, Northwestern fans have been busy lamenting and whining about how screwed we are and how nothing ever goes right for us over the past few days. It's understandable. People have emotions and stuff. And it's led to some really thought provoking posts: we've seen multiple people lamenting by listing the litany (ALLITERATION, PUNKS) of terrible things that have happened to NU basketball. We've seen multiple people say Coble leaving is indicative of a greater tradition of indifference, and that NU is a program with a losing attitude problems that extend off the court that will prevent us from ever winning anything.
I'd like to focus on basketball.
College basketball people who know what they're talking about seem to think Northwestern - despite the crippling loss of Kevin Coble - still looks like a pretty damn good team. Click those links. All three.
What The Only Colors focused on was the similarity between Kevin Coble and John Shurna. They're alarming. So let's look into them.
First, let me say one thing: I'm obviously not saying that because the two are such similar players, it's better for Northwestern that the two won't be on the same team. This is silly. As the cloning thread at my other favorite website, Posting and Toasting, tried to point out through science fiction, the effects of having two identical players could be very beneficial. The fact that LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are both very athletic scorers who have spent their entire careers dominating the ball does not bode poorly for the Miami Heat. (They're very different players, but, you get the point.)
Let's hit the jump:
(all stats from ESPN and kenpom - go check them out yourself)
The first - and most obvious - comparison is physical. Both guys are listed at 6'8 and 210 pounds, both are wiry and weak compared to other Big Ten centers, and a lot of Big Ten power forwards. Shurna's definitely faster and has better jumping ability than Coble, but the difference is negligible against Big Ten competition. They both could play the 3/4: Coble played the 4 for almost the entirety of his career - I get the sense Shurna will as well from here on out, although he did play small forward when Bill Carmody started him and Coble simultaneously as freshmen.
And their playing styles are similar: both guys are gifted shooters. They both score very well in awkward situations - Coble lived and died on the off-balance jumper and the way-too-far three, Shurna has that hideous jumper of his that he likes to take with no space after a few hard dribbles, and they both love the "oh crap I'm off-balance and about to travel maybe I should throw up a floater" shot that they hit about 94 percent of the time. They're both slow and neither is much good at creating space off the dribble, or playing defense, for that matter. They both get a lot of points off of textbook PO backdoor cuts. And neither has a drive-and-kick mentality: when they make the decision to hit the lane, there's no turning back, and very rarely is there a pass to a cutter as they slowly, but steadily, barrel their way through the lane.
Those similarities don't end with things you can pick up easily, they continue on to the world of advanced statistics. It's eery to look at the stats the two guys register and not see immediate comparisons - in fact, Shurna seems to be the better player by the majority of metrics, except in a few categories.
It's unfair to look at career stats, because Shurna played a limited role as a freshman while Coble has been NU's leading scorer and rebounder all three years. But I think it's very reasonable to compare the 2008-09 team Coble starred on to the 2009-10 team Shurna starred on. Shurna takes Coble's role, Alex Marcotullio takes Craig Moore's role, Jeremy Nash and MIchael Thompson stay the same, Kyle Rowley and Luka Mirkovic still don't really help that much, and Shurna's gig as the athletic freshman cracking the starting lineup is taken by Drew Crawford - although Crawford is certainly miles more athletic than Shurna. Very similar teams.
And the roles Shurna and Coble had were nearly identical: in Coble's season, he took 28.4 percent of the team's shots, and 24.5 percent of the team's possessions ended with him shooting, turning the ball over, or shooting free throws. Those numbers for Shurna were 28.8 percent and 25.4 percent. Miiiiiighty similar.
So let's take a look at the conventional stats each player recorded in those years:
As you see, Shurna averages more points and more rebounds than the guy who led NU in scoring and rebounding for three consecutive seasons. If any of you stat buffs out there want to point out that Shurna's team played faster, you're right - the 2010 Wildcats used 64.1 possessions per game, only 60.9 in 2009. But even with stats adjusted for pace, we can see Shurna is the better player. Let's break it down:
Scoring
Both players are obviously gifted scorers and great shooters. When it comes to shooting, Coble arguably has the better stroke: as you can see plainly above, there's a 4 percent difference between Coble's three-point shooting and Shurna's three-point shooting. There's no denying that Coble's a better shooter from downtown.
But Shurna still manages to be a slightly more efficient offensive player: while Coble scored 1.27 points per shot he took, Shurna scored 1.31. (For those of you wondering, points per shot is my favorite statistic, as it takes into account far more than points-per-game or shooting percentages. Pomeroy uses ORtg and eFG%, both of which are stats that account for scoring efficiency - both also give Shurna a very meager edge.)
If both players are great shooters, but Coble is better, why is Shurna the better scorer?
Free throws: Shurna is significantly better at getting to the line than Coble. In Coble's three years as NU's leading scorer, he shot 188 free throws - about 2.3 a game. Shurna took 138 last year alone - 4.05 a game. Watching highlights, you'll see that while Shurna loves to draw fouls in transition and can bang around the basket, Coble relies on shying away from contact to get better looks - his trademark fadeaway banker that he worked so effectively against Michigan State is a huge example of that. Shurna is also a better shooter from the line, as he converted at a 77 percent rate, slightly better than Coble's 76 percent, but, that's obviously not that big a deal.
Inside the arc scoring: Shurna's also better from two-point range: he shot .549 from two, while Coble shot .508. Again, look at the highlights: while Coble resorts to his trick shot collection down low against big men, Shurna has a variety of well-developed post moves that rely on the speed advantage he has on opposition down low - that up-and-under is killer - and end up with him right at the basket.
Rebounding
Coble gets a lot of publicity for being NU's leading rebounder three years running. It's pretty damn ballyhooed. But it's not as impressive as it sounds: Coble never averaged more than 5.4 rebounds per game, and the best rebounder-per-game besides Coble in his three seasons was - I'll give you a moment to brace yourselves, and guess - Northwestern legend Tim Doyle, who averaged 3.3 board per game in 2006-07. (Hooooooooooly crap that's awful.)
Shurna isn't just a better rebounder, he's a much better rebounder. Of course, he has a significant advantage in per-game stats, bringing down a team-high 6.4 per-game last season. Pomeroy looks at rebound ratings - the percentage of rebounds a player grabs while they're on the court - and Shurna takes a clear advantage. Their defensive rebound ratings are almost identical: Coble had a 15.5, Shurna had a 15.8 - but the difference on the offensive glass is enormous. Shurna had more offensive rebounds than Coble in 2008-09, when Shurna played about half the minutes Coble did, bringing down 7.6 percent of all missed shots while he was on offense, while Coble only recovered 2.7 percent. Shurna kept it up last year with a 5.7 rating.
And all this comes with a much better rebounding team: last year, Luka Mirkovic (5.7) Drew Crawford (4.3) and Jeremy Nash (3.8) each had more rebounds-per-game than any non-Coble player during Coble's career at NU. Coble didn't have to fight anybody for boards - Shurna had three suitable rebounders besides him.
Defense
Not much of a difference in individual defensive stats - Shurna's better at blocking shots, Coble recorded more steals - it kind of evens out. But NU's defensive schemes aren't really predicated on individual virtuosity, either.
However, the team experiences a marked uptick in defensive efficiency: the 2008-09 team allowed an unseemly 101 points per 100 possessions, the 2009-2010 team allowed a slightly more seemly 97 points per 100 possessions. Some of this can be credited to other players, but it's definitely a good sign for life post-Coble. (NU's offensive efficiency also increased from 110.6 to 112.5, but I already made my case with the individual stats that Shurna can be considered Coble's equal.)
Shurna's deficiencies:
Passing: Statistically, Kevin Coble delivered more assists and conceded less turnovers than Shurna, averaging 1.77 assists-per-turnover as a junior, while Shurna's sophomore year saw him with a 1.31 number. I think this is due to a growing familiarity with the Princeton Offense Shurna is experiencing. It's worth noting that both players became better in this category as their careers progressed: Shurna had a genuinely bad .83 rating as a freshman, while Coble's jumped from 1.16 to 1.77 between his sophomore and junior years. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a team-wide trend.
Prolific scoring in losses: I feel like this is the biggest question mark in John Shurna's statistical profile: It was easy to note over the course of the season that John Shurna's best games - offensively - came in defeats. This isn't true for Coble: he had a distinctive knack for taking over games, and looking back at his game log, a lot of NU's losses came in games where he had a particularly bad day.
I don't think this is something to worry about. John Shurna is not Zach Randolph, and I watched Stephon Marbury for two years. His 31 points in losses to Michigan State and Indiana and his 29 in another loss to Michigan State are not to blame for those L's. Shurna hasn't mastered the ability to win games singlehandedly yet - although he went over 25 points six times last year, that only led to wins against Iowa and Central Connecticut State - he's a great scorer. He was keeping NU in a lot of those games where he scored in droves when no other offense would show up.
So, to recap:
Things John Shurna is identical or better to Kevin Coble at: scoring per game, scoring efficiency, drawing fouls, foul shooting, two-point field goal percentage, defensive rebounding, offensive rebounding, blocking shots
Things Kevin Coble was better at: three-point shooting, assists, turnovers, steals, meaningful scoring.
Even if you think John Shurna isn't at Kevin Coble's level yet - and I hope I've made a pretty freakin convincing argument, people - it would be nearly impossible to say that Shurna has the potential to be as good, if not better, at the helm of a team gunning for an NCAA tournament spot.
Again, am I saying Northwestern is better off with Coble injured? OF COURSE NOT. That's stupid. A team with Shurna and Coble, each playing off each other? Obviously, both guys are gifted at creating their own ugly-looking scoring opportunities, but I can't imagine that's a tandem that wouldn't give opposing coaches fits figuring out what defensive alignment to run, each guy hitting the post whenever teams matched them up with a smaller guy. Depth and talented players are always good. Coble leaving sucks, and we're all mad at whoever is responsible, whether it be Bill Carmody, Coble himself, or some malevolent higher power that hates Northwestern athletics. (I see you, Loki, shapeshifting Norse evil trickster god. Cut it out. Dickwad.)
What I'm simply saying is that we're not boned as royally and completely as we initially imagined.
This team has a shot. I have dreamed and will continue to dream of Northwestern making the NCAA tournament this year. We can cut ourselves and listen to Fall Out Boy and go home and wonder why the pretty girls like all the other guys in our middle school and soak in the angst of wondering why this always happens to us, or we could not. Me, I'm looking forward to November. See you there.
Now! It's football posting time for the next two or three weeks. I love basketball more than anything, but it's July, so unless Ivan Peljusic cracks Mike Capocci over the head with a chair in the next few weeks, earning him a spot in the Carmody doghouse and probably giving Capocci some sort of brutal head injury, I don't expect to write about it again.
0 recs |
22 comments
|
Comments
One note:
Under Scoring, by “.04 percent” you actually mean either “0.04” OR “4 percent” [regarding 3 point shooting percentage].
Anyways great breakdown to show that all-in-all these guys are relatively interchangeable. Of course having BOTH would have been awesome, but we’ll take what we can get. If the supporting cast improves somewhat, this team will be on the tourney bubble, if not in.
BTW, could you do a statistical breakdown showing Rowley leaving will help the team? Thanks.
--
JHodges
HailToPurple
funny you should ask
i spent about ten minutes giggling at all the kenpom stats related to kyle rowley. pomeroy ranks players on account of what percentage of a team’s possessions end with that player, and rowley ends up as a “significant contributor” along with drew crawford, on account of he accounts for about 33 percent of the team’s turnovers.
by Rodger Sherman on Jul 29, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Great post --
Even though Coble leaving sucks, I’m still excited about this team and can’t wait to see what happens.
I also dig kenpom.com, so I appreciate your breakdown.
Here’s another mystery I can’t figure out:
Turnover% for Opponents (nat’l rank):
’05 – 23.0 (59th)
’06 – 23.3 (62nd)
’07 – 24.7 (20th)!
’08 – 24.3 (26th)
’09 – 24.4 (12th)
’10 – 20.6 (161) !!
WTF happened last year that differed from all of the previous years? Yeah, we had a faster tempo (64.1 poss per game), but that’s still slow – 293rd in the country. Even in ’08 we were rollicking at 62.1 ppg.
As much as everyone hated the 1-3-1, the steals were the whole point of that disruption defense. I can’t figure out why the system didn’t work, when in theory, he had more athletic players.
If we were able to sustain those turnover numbers of previous years, we should’ve gone dancing last year.
www.massivecreativity.com
weird.
what the hell caused that? coble stole the ball on about 2.5 percent of possessions – his absence can’t have been responsible for a four percent shift like that.
maybe with more athletic players, carmody figured he could use the matchup zone more frequently – which nearly asks players to play man-to-man. it sure would explain the less turnovers, as well as the slight improvement in terms of defensive efficiency, that the team experienced this year.
by Rodger Sherman on Jul 29, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I think...
…you answered your own question. In 2009, we played 1-3-1 as a change of pace, meaning we could catch opposing teams off-guard, and they’d inevitably give up a couple quick/easy turnovers every game just adjusting into (and later out of) the 1-3-1.
In 2010, it seems like we stuck to the 1-3-1 come hell or high-water, meaning teams could A) prepare for it, and B) didn’t have to go through adjustments mid-game.
If Carmody wants to fix the defense, we need to get back to switching things up during games, and throwing our opponents off. We cannot just play one defense and hope to compete. Our guys are smart enough to learn the Princeton Offense….surely they can learn 2-3 defensive base plans and how to switch between them to keep the opposition off-guard.
From my knowledge, we’ve been pretty consistent with the 1-3-1 during Carmody’s tenure. (I remember li’l Michael Jenkins waddling from sideline to sideline…)
As much as we played the 1-3-1 last year, we still experienced our best rebounding year ever. kenpom.com had us only 3% in terms of Offensive Rebound%. That may suck, but three years ago we were -20+. From my recollection - we usually started with matchup zone and then Carmody would switch off that usually about 10-12 minutes in. I think the matchup zone gave us better rebounding position, but good offenses knew how to probe the matchup zone to…well get the better matchup.
From what I’ve read of Carmody this year, he agrees with your statement Chad in terms of mixing it up. I don’t recall ever running a pure 2-3 (a la Syracuse), or running full court press (now that we’ve got a li’l more depth).
www.massivecreativity.com
sorry about the strikethrough...
i didn’t intend to strikethrough in my previous comment. however, i don’t know how to undo it.
www.massivecreativity.com
Great article, let’s pray Bill uses the 2-3 defense this year.
by jackbuc@aol.com on Jul 29, 2010 3:16 PM CDT reply actions
I'm fine....
….with 1-3-1, but only as an occasional change of pace. We need to be multiple on our defensive looks, just to keep the other team honest. Hopefully increased depth (albeit less so now that Coble has left) will allow us to do this without wearing out our starters.
(The one problem I have with the Coble thing — if this was just an issue of him not wanting to play anymore, I have NO problem with it….but couldn’t he have told us sooner? Being able to offer a scholarship to someone else to come in this upcoming year would have been nice….)
It's also negligible
Consider the defensive deficiencies, it should come as no surprise; statistically, the two most important stats besides the final score is the control of turnovers and the occurrence of offensive rebounds (one prevents loss of possessions, the other produces possessions).
However, a differential of a few percentages at that level shouldn’t be significant. If anything, the inconsistencies game-to-game last year is indicated by that sort of statistic.
It can only get better.
Two things
1) re: turnovers- Losing Coble in 2010 in addition to losing Craig Moore (2.5%) and Jeff Ryan (2.8%) meant that a lot of the front of that 1-3-1 zone was gone. It was a lot easier for Nash, etc. to streak over and pick off a pass when that pass had to clear the active arms of those guys rather than Crawford (1.4%) or Shurna (1.4%).
2) Losing Coble is going to hurt NU in 2009 on defense. He was quite good for all three years in all three statistical areas that record defensive ability: Defensive rebounds, Blocks, and Steals. I’m Hoosier fan, but I was rooting for the Wildcats to finally break this streak, which they would’ve with a healthy Coble. Without… maybe, maybe not.
Also, Rodger, you’ve made a nice case about Shurna being an excellent player, but I think your stats are a little skewed in that the addition of Mirkovic, Shurna, et al meant that Coble was playing on the perimeter on defense as well as offense in 2009- which he wasn’t in 2007-2008. Shurna’s first two years haven’t really measure up to the Coble’s numbers those first two years. Shurna might make the NBA, but Coble was very effective when he was able to get outside of the paint a little in 2009, and I don’t think it’s any coincidence that NU went from one of the worst teams all-time in the conference in 2008 to being the NCAA tourney at-large discussion in 2009.
best,
Devin
I hate to be this guy
because normally I can’t stand when people ignore stats and just blindly throw out their opinions.
however, I really don’t think Coble was a good defensive player. He may have gotten some steals and blocks due to his long arms, but as a one on one defender he was horrendous. As evidence, I cite this from an old Dave Revsine blog in March of 2009:
The only reason [Coble]‘s not on the “no-brainer” [All-Big Ten] list is his defense, or lack thereof. He doesn’t seem all that interested in exerting himself on that end of the court – which has led Bill Carmody to pull him a couple of times this season. I know one Big Ten coach tells his team to drive right at Coble any time they find themselves guarded by him in NU’s match-up zone.
That fits about with what I remember from watching him on defense, I really don’t think his presence would somehow solve the defensive problems that have been going on for years at NU.
I beat the defense topic to death last winter, but there are a lot of problems with it, ranging from the personnel on the court to the lack of depth to the systems being run by the coaching staff.
true
but shurna isn’t bill russell either.
by Rodger Sherman on Jul 30, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Carmody's Contract?
Can someone tell me with certainty if he’s in his last year? or second to last?
fair point
Rodger-
True enough, I won’t argue that Coble was some sort of lock-down one-on-one defender, or even very interested in defending. And despite his nifty block percentage throughout the years, I don’t remember seeing him ever stuff anybody. I do remember him having a knack for getting steals, and for years was he seemed like the only guy on NU interested in or with any ability of getting defensive rebounds.
I do think he had a positive impact on NU’s team defense, but again, that’s really hard to measure. And with Rowley & Nash (I know, I know, their offense suh-ucked) also gone, I just look at those three statistical areas of defense and wonder how the overall defense is going to improve for NU?
On the upside, Marcotullio had a very good steal percentage, as did the returning Jeff Ryan, so they might be able to make up the difference in that dept, and Davide Curletti should be able to pick up Rowley’s (diminishing) minutes and defensive rebounds without a hitch. Overall, tho, I’d still be concerned about NU’s ability to contain the boards without Coble.
defense
obviously the most difficult thing to figure out, both for us as people watching and for carmody as a coach. the 1-3-1 – although it does give nash/marcotullio their fair share of steals – gives up way too many uncontested layups and threes. perhaps without nash it becomes less prevalent in our gameplan?
as for coble, shurna is as good a rebounder, and mirkovic – in my opinion – has been the team’s most talented rebounder two years running. true, the kenpom stats point to rowley – but i’ll trade off one or two defensive rebounds for someone who doesn’t turn the ball over 32 percent of the time.
by Rodger Sherman on Jul 30, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
heh.
i’ll trade off one or two defensive rebounds for someone who doesn’t turn the ball over 32 percent of the time.
Good one. I had overlooked how jaw-droppingly awful Rowley was there… that’s nearly twice as much as Curletti. I mean, that’s Daniel Moore territory.
I’m also guessing there’ll be less 1-3-1 at Welsh-Ryan without Nash & Coble.
by Devin of CBC on Jul 30, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
funny you mention that
From what LWilhite posted over at wildcat report, he thinks the 1-3-1 will feature Marco, Cobb or Ryan up top, which might not be that big of a dropoff from Nash.
www.massivecreativity.com
Rodg-
West Virginia runs a 1-3-1, don’t see too many folks complaining about their defense (89.4 D RTG)
One thing that works in West Virginia’s favor is the 1-3-1 Zone. The Mountaineers will likely have to use it more to confound the Wildcats and hope that they miss their outside shots. Kentucky is a spotty shooting team from long range. They have the ability to hit the three, with Bledsoe, Miller and Dodson being the primary sharp-shooters. However, they have struggled at times.
I think it goes back to the front 4 of that 1-3-1 — they need to have a motor, and be able to disrupt with length. They can’t let it get to that extra pass that goes inside. Again, I’m not saying that should be our base defense — but the fact that we’ve forced turnovers in all the years prior to the previous must speak to it’s effectiveness.
www.massivecreativity.com
a 1-3-1 can be run well.
look, i write about football on this site a lot, but i’m a basketball x’s and o’s nerd. after about halfway through the year, opposing coaches simply were not disturbed by northwestern’s 1-3-1. west virginia has great athletes and great defenders. (i think devin ebanks will be a solid defensive specialist in the nba. mark my words.) nu doesn’t. college basketball players are good enough at passing and shooting that with a few days of practice, they can beat a 1-3-1 easily.
i plan on putting together a few big posts about the zone in season – i just need some game film to watch.
by Rodger Sherman on Jul 30, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I Hate the 1-3-1, but to be fair...
Everything else was even worse. As far as I can tell, the only really great defensive performance we had last year against good competition was playing the 2-3 zone against Purdue (which certainly helped with the rebounding as well).
If we play defense we WILL make the NCAAs this year. It’s a big if, though.

by 











