Central Failure: A list of the Northwestern big men under Bill Carmody
by Loretta8 on Jan 30, 2012 12:24 PM CST
in Northwestern Wildcats Basketball
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PrintIn case it weren't obvious already, Northwestern has a problem at the center position. And it seems as though this is a problem every year; since the graduation of All-American Evan Eschmeyer in 1999, Northwestern hasn't had a center come anywhere close to All-Big Ten honors, and the position is nearly always a question mark going into each new season. So I decided to delve deep into the NUsports.com archives in search of why this problem still persists, and the results were interesting. The problem didn't actually start when Eschmeyer graduated; Kevin O'Neill recruits Tavaras Hardy (a 2002 graduate) and Aaron Jennings (a 2003 graduate) both developed into at least competent Big Ten centers by their senior seasons. It actually began after the disastrous 1999-2000 season, when Kevin O'Neill was replaced by Bill Carmody.
During his 10+ years at Northwestern, Carmody has recruited 11 players (who've seen the court) who could be described as centers, and let's just say the results haven't been pretty. Here they are , in chronological order:
Thomas Soltau
Country of Origin: Denmark
Size: 6'11", 225 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2001-02
Best season of career: 8 games, 17 total minutes, 9 points
Soltau was part of Carmody's first recruiting class, and played a grand total of 26 minutes in 1.5 years before leaving school to play professionally in Denmark. So not the best use of a scholarship.
However, Soltau has been ballin' in Denmark: he averaged 23 points and 9 rebounds for SISU Copenhagen during the 2010-11 season.
Davor Duvancic
Country of Origin: Croatia
Size: 6'8", 235 pound
Time at Northwestern: 2001-05
Best season of career: 30 games, 6.5 points/game, 4.4 rebounds/game, 47.8% field goal percentage
Duvancic had the same below the rim game as Luka Mirkovic, except he was smaller, softer, and traveled even more often trying to make basic post moves. And in Northwestern big man tradition, he never once had 10+ rebounds in a game despite playing 30 minutes a night as a junior and a senior. He is, however, one of only two Carmody big man recruits to ever score 20+ points in a game, as he dropped a career high 22 in an upset of top 25 Illinois in 2004.
Ivan Tolic
Country of Origin: Croatia
Size: 6'9", 285 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2002-2007
Best season of career: 9.3 minutes/game, 1.6 points/game, 1.3 rebounds/game, 22 of 33 field goal shooting
While Tolic was in Evanston for 5 years, he essentially played only 2 of them, as he redshirted as a freshman and missed nearly his entire sophomore year and all of his junior year due to injury. And even when he was healthy, he didn't bring much to the table. Let's take a look at the first season of his career game by game, per his NUsports.com bio:
- First collegiate appearance came in season opener vs. Colorado (11/21/03); had assist on backdoor layup on his first collegiate touch.
- Grabbed two boards in five minutes at UIC (12/20/03) note: NU lost that game by 19 points
- Played 14 minutes and scored first collegiate point in Big Ten opener at Michigan (1/7/04)
- Scored two points, dished out five assists without a turnover at Iowa (1/10/04)
- Hit first collegiate field goal and snared four rebounds in 26 minutes at Indiana (1/17/04
So yeah, it took him almost 2 months into the season to make a shot from the field. I'll always remember Tolic for two things: his incredible lack of foot speed, and his slight resemblance to Shrek.
Vince Scott
Country of Origin: United States of America
Size: 6'11", 240 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2003-2007
Best season of career: 28 minutes/game, 6.7 points/game, 2.9 rebounds/game, 1 block/game
All you need to know about Vince Scott's game is he was 6'11", 240 pounds and took more threes than twos during his college career and never once had 10 rebounds in a game despite starting for 2.5 seasons. It would be difficult to create a softer big man. Scott was a decent 3-point shooter, hitting 36.7% as a senior, but when his 3-point shooting was off he would completely disappear in games, such as a 0 point, 0 rebound performance in 20 minutes against Illinois as a senior. Scott was so bad as a senior that Carmody was often forced to play freshman Kevin Coble at the center position in 2006-07, which was a large part of why NU was the worst rebounding team in the country that year.
The highlight of Vince Scott's career, a moment he will surely tell his grandchildren about, was when he rejected Ohio State's Greg Oden in a game at Welsh-Ryan Arena in 2007. I hope he has the video of this because no one will believe him otherwise.
Mike Thompson
Country of Origin: United States of America
Size: 6'10', 250 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2004-05
Best (only) season of career: 13 games, 27.5 minutes/game, 10.2 points/game, 4.8 rebounds/game
The only 5-star recruit in Northwestern basketball history, Thompson transferred to NU after 1.5 disappointing seasons at Duke, and was being heralded as the savior of the program. I remember being giddy with excitement to watch Thompson's debut, a nationally televised home game with DePaul. After winning the opening tip, Thompson ran the floor beautifully and was fed for a lay-up about 7 seconds into the game. All-Big Ten honors seemed like a lock.
But that was probably the highlight of his career. Thompson was an improvement over Scott and Duvancic, but he missed some time with injuries, and then pulled a Coble and quit before his senior season, yet stayed on scholarship and graduated. I'll just let Fire Bill Carmody give his thoughts:
michael thompson turned out to be a much bigger puss than i could ever dream (and believe me, i thought he was a HUGE pansy before he quit the team)
So there you go.
edit: apparently an irregular heartbeat forced Thompson to retire
Bernard Cote
Country of Origin: Canada
Size: 6'8", 230 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2005-06
Best (only) season of career: 16 minutes/game, 4.2 points/game, 2.3 rebounds/game, 37.7% field goal percentage
Cote warmed the bench at Kentucky for two years before transferring to NU, and Bill Carmody was optimistic :
Bernard sat out last year but he worked hard on his game and I expect him to step in and contribute immediately. He proved to be one of our best long-range shooters in practice, but he also has some nice post moves and has a knack for getting to the line. He has been working hard on his dribbling and his shot. Plus he has experience from playing two years at Kentucky, so he will not be in awe when he steps on the floor this season—he understands what it takes to play at the highest level in college and succeed.
Yeah, not quite. Cote did absolutely nothing in 2005-06, then left school with his degree rather than stay on as a fifth year senior.
Nikola Baran
Country of Origin: Croatia
Size: 6'7", 225 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2007-08
Best season of career: 30 games, 16 games started, 13.5 minutes/game, 3.1 points/game, 1.1 rpg, 29.8 FG%
One of the great mysteries of the Bill Carmody era is why in the world he decided to give a scholarship to Nikola Baran, who was a complete disaster during his one season in Evanston. Baran lacked the size, athleticism, toughness and shooting ability to compete at the Division 1 level, much less the Big Ten level. In fact, the only thing he wasn't lacking was a full head of hair, as he grew out a Croatian afro which, at its peak, rivaled Wisconsin's Mike Bruesewitz in size.
Cro-Fro would see his minutes decrease as the season went on, eventually being benched in favor of Ivan Peljusic, and he ended up transferring to Division II Rollins College after the season. As a senior at Rollins:
Moved into the starting lineup midway through the season, playing in all 33 games and starting 19...aveaged 8.1 points and 3.0 rebounds a game in 22.8 minutes a night
That's at Division II, and this dude was starting in the Big Ten. Depressing.
Ivan Peljusic
Country of Origin: Croatia
Size: 6'8", 220 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2007-2011
Best season of career: 13.6 minutes/game, 3.9 points/game, 2.5 rebounds/game, 40.3% field goal percentage
Peljusic had a strange career arc, as his minutes went down each of his four years at Northwestern. This was largely due to Carmody recruiting a trio of centers with Big Ten size starting in 2008-09, but Peljusic's game seemed to regress over the years. As a sophomore, he scored 10 points off the bench to spark an upset over Florida State and made occasional contributions throughout the year.
By the time of his senior year, Peljusic only played in garbage time with the walk-ons, and generally looked clueless as to how play basketball. He played nearly the entire second half in a blowout win over Arkansas-Pine Bluff, and played defense like a kid in an under-8 league: all he did was chase after whoever had the ball.
Country of Origin: Trinidad and Tobago
Size: 7'0", 280 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2008-10
Best season of career: 13 minutes/game, 3.6 points/game, 1.8 rebounds/game
The most amazing part of Rowley's NUsports.com profile is the part that says:
Chose Northwestern over Indiana, Georgetown, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Pittsburgh and Oregon State.
Rowley played two ineffective years at Northwestern before transferring to Saint Mary's, where he is currently riding the pine for the top 25 Gaels. It's hard to fault Carmody for bringing in Rowley, as he was a highly touted local big man and NU was in desperate need of size at the center position, but the Rowley era was quite the disappointment.
Luka Mirkovic
Country of Origin: Serbia
Size: 6'11", 245 pounds
Time at Northwestern: 2008-12
Best season of career: 25 minutes/game, 7.3 points/game, 5.7 rebounds/game
Mirkovic's demise this season into a complete liability on both ends of the court has been difficult to watch. Luka's never exactly been good, but he's been a key factor in NU winning games against good teams in the past (to cite but one example, as a freshman he did a great job off the bench in an upset at Purdue). He also put up 20 and 12 in a win over Indiana last year, and he remains the only Bill Carmody recruited center to get 10+ rebounds in a game, which he first accomplished in February of 2009 (yes, it took 8.5 years for one of Carmody's bigs to get 10 rebounds). His Serbian finger guns three point celebration was the stuff of legends.
But now, Mirkovic has become a laughingstock. I'll just leave it to Down With Goldy:
Luka Mirkovich [sic] is the least mobile person I've ever seen. His defense is very similar to this lamp I'm sitting next to. His best offensive move is somehow using his fat slowness to trick the guy guarding him into thinking he's not actually moving and then suddenly make a lay-up. If he and Stephen Hawking had a good ole fashioned athletic face-off the line would be Luka -120.
So, yeah.
Country of Origin: United States of America
Size: 6'9", 230 pounds
Best season of career: 19 minutes/game, 4.5 points/game, 3.4 rebounds/game
Curletti didn't see much playing time until last year, when he served as the backup to Mirkovic, but he's recently taken over the starting spot (mostly due to Mirkovic's struggles). After randomly exploding for 17 points in the upset over Michigan State, Curletti has regressed to the mean rapidly, culminating in Saturday's debacle against Purdue where he was unable to post up six foot-nothing guard Ryne Smith without turning the ball over. He's a decent perimeter shooter but his complete lack of post moves or athleticism have largely rendered him a liability.
So that's the entire depressing list. The overwhelming problem here is recruiting, as the vast majority of those big men simply aren't any good. Thompson and Cote must have had talent to be recruited by Duke and Kentucky, but if Mike Krzyzewski and Tubby Smith respectively couldn't get anything out of them, then Carmody wasn't going to either. Carmody has managed to recruit talent at other positions, but until NU manages to bring in a center who's at least competent, it's hard to imagine NU making the NCAA tournament.
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Wow.
I knew Carmody recruited some sub-par Big Ten big men, but this really puts it into perspective.
I knew he loved Eastern Europeans, but to this degree, just embarrassing. Gosh, Carmody is bad at recruiting, coaching, but he is DOWN RIGHT TERRIBLE at recruiting big men.
I mean some of these names just make me laugh, thanks for humor L8.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 12:29 PM CST reply actions
Note on Mike Thompson
He didn’t exactly “pull a Coble” as he reportedly had a previously unknown heart defect that prevented him from continuing his playing career – I say reportedly because due to health privacy laws the university could never confirm that and I don’t think he ever revealed it, but from what I remember it was reported in the local media.
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JHodges
HailToPurple
you got any documentation for this one?
as i dont recall hearing about that
Took some digging...
check out the last paragraph of this SI article from Dec ’05 (almost exactly one year after he became eligible to play for NU). It was an “irregular heartbeat.”
(Note that the Evanston Review article that originally reported this isn’t available unless you have a subscription to the Sun Times’ archives – as they own the Review and only allow free access to the last 30 days’ articles). It was also spread around via NU message boards at the time.
--
JHodges
HailToPurple
I'm sure I'm in the majority on this one
However, I consider MTI nearly the height of the Carmody coaching issues.
First of all, he was on the bench within three or four games, theeeeeeeeeeen suddenly he had heart issues.
It was also recently reported by a very unreliable Internet source that the “heart thing” was always misinterpreted. It wasn’t meant as a true problem with his physical heart, but more with his psychological heart. Take that for what it’s worth.
Anyhow, all of us have heard all the stories that SOMEHOW got out about Thompson. (Interesting how similar the gossip mills ran for MTI and Coble.) It could not be more utterly ridiculous that MTI was in the doghouse after a few games. So supposedly nobody saw these character issues for the entire year that he was on campus, but then ALL OF THE SUDDEN he was a cancer in the locker room.
Pu-lease. This has Carmody’s crappy communication written all over it.
I’ll assume MTI wasn’t a saint. But to lose patience and give up on a a kid after three or four games says something else.
No.
Like I stated below, I’m a big fan of Coble, and to see the information that ‘leaked’ about how he didn’t hang out with teammates much was reprehensible by Carmody. To see Coble come out so strongly in his own defense of where/when his vacation with his ailing mother was, why he didn’t hang with the team all the time, and why he left the team made it clear to me that something was up. Carmody’s silence spoke volumes to me.
Like I’ve said many times, I don’t have a personal axe against Carmody, but that Coble incident was one of Carmody’s low points as a person to me.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 1:57 PM CST up reply actions
the coble incident is one of the weirder things ever.
Nobody really knows what happens, so I won’t assign blame, but I think Carmody as a coach and Coble as a player both exhibited major personality flaws in the way that unfolded.
by Rodger Sherman on Jan 30, 2012 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
True.
I only know ONE side of the story, so I’m having to ASSUME a great deal. But, I feel like I know Coble’s character based on his dedication to his Mom and dedication to NU, he was at EVERY SINGLE GAME (road and home), so I felt he was a part of the team.
His plea/discussion to TG showed me that he was very hurt by what information leaked out about him. So, on the whole, I know Coble’s side, trust Coble’s story, and feel like I know Coble’s character.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
Excuse me but I love the Coble thing
Who ever heard of a coach losing their best player in such a crucial season in his senior year? And over an off-season situation? Why wouldn’t he allow Coble to make the trip with his family and simply make him pay during pre-season practice. Message sent, hug it out and move onto the season. Unbelievable.
Show me a coach who won’t make compromises with his players – especially college kids – and I’ll show you a losing coach. I’ve seen this in a few instances and it never fails.
I also love how it’s completely ignored that Coble was allowed back into school – as NU would have you believe – out of the generosity of their hearts. I’m sure lawyers never considered who instigated this and the terms “breach of contract” never entered that discussion. (Yes, I’m sure there’s a more specific legal issue here but you get the idea from this legal amateur.)
Allowing Coble back into school was all I needed to know about whose issue this was.
Yea, but this is one of those red button topics
Where people literally hate Coble so much, it is hard to have an educated discussion. I’ve read Rivals, and it is just crazy the amount of anger towards Coble, and a few have anger towards Carmody.
I wish I knew what really happened, but from what I do know, clearly it doesn’t look good for Carmody.
Fast forward to today, did anyone benefit from this? Nope, neither side did.
It amazes me that while recruiting has ‘improved,’ this year’s classes seems to be lackluster, sure injuries have an effect, but outside of Sobo, this team’s prospects aren’t looking up. I just wonder if the administration/Phillips said, you couldn’t do it with Shurna as a senior, that’s it, time to switch.
The discussion that will dominate these boards will be who/what type of coach will be here next. I don’t know if it is better to hire a mid major coach or an asst at a top program or promote T Hardy and hope for Fitz type marketing campaign. Personally, I’m neutral on this and trust them to make a solid hire. NU’s clearly shown they will pay a solid amount, so that’s not the issue, but rather who/how much will it take to lure somebody?
I agree w/L8 that Shaka Smart isn’t taking this job, but I want NU to find the next Shaka Smart prior to him being an amazing coach. Murray State’s coach will get a solid gig, but what about the others?
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
Can we rename this post, "The Horror, the Horror"?
Look on the bright side, Loretta8 – you only had to research this list. Some of us actually had to watch all of them play. Brutal.
And should Mr. Carmody leave after this season, I suspect that his next position will not be “international talent scout”, given that recruiting track record.
Hey, he did find Vukusic
who was one of the best players we’ve had! And TJ Parker.
That's his crowning foreign achievement.
Vedran was an incredible player, so much so that he was the ONLY NU player outside of Evan E to be listed on NBADraft.net, as a 2nd rounder before his senior season.
He was heck of a player that was plagued with injuries. Too bad he was the exception and not the rule.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
Vukusic - Not sure if Serious?
Sometimes I wonder if he was really a good player, or just the best on an otherwise miserable squad. Ditto for TJ. Still, nice response. Maybe we can clarify that Mr. Carmody will not be scouting international centers, and leave it at that.
Vukusic was the real deal
Until Shurna came along, he was the best all-around player, at least on the offensive end. He had the outside shot, plus post-up moves. As NU Alum points out, he was good enough to get on the NBA draft radar.
TJ Parker, I always felt was rather overrated, a little too helter skelter as a point guard. But he was more good than bad.
Point taken on the international centers.
Hell yea.
Vedran is still my favorite NU player, just a shade bit over Jitim and Juice. But, he was a flat out stud at times. Plus, he had a NBA style body, some swagger to him, and some clutch play on some awful teams.
TJ Parker was a joke and apparently not even a good guy. Just a product of his brother’s fame.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
Geno Carlisle, Kevin Rankin
Other than Esch, these are probably the last two that I think of as true quality B1G players in the sense that they’re two of the few I remember as being able to create their own shot. Some of that is probably just a difference from Carmody’s offensive philosophy, but nobody else springs to mind as “give him the basketball with 10 seconds left and he’ll score”. Coble could have been on that list, but the injuries over his career were just too much. Juice played with heart and hit some big ones, but just didn’t have the size to consistently create. I’m not sure on Shurna, yet – need to let a little time pass before putting him into perspective.
Yea, I didn't see those guys play...
…so I can’t truly make an educated comment.
I was and still am a huge fan of Coble, not trying to start that debate, but he was as fluid an offensive playmaker for this team as I’ve ever seen, even over Esch and Vedran. So crafty. The 08-09 season was a true highlight reel of games for him.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
for the record...
carmody has more or less handed off international recruiting to assistant ivan vujic. he still takes trips to europe (i believe), but it’s mainly vujic’s gig.
by Rodger Sherman on Jan 30, 2012 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
Wow, I don't remember Duvancic being that bad
Limited, sure, and frustrating at times, yes. But I’m actually surprised to see he has a worse “best season” than Mirkovic. I thought Duvancic as a senior was acceptable. Still subpar and undersized, but ah, I must be suffering from selective memory.
wow.
this is something. this is really, really something.
by Rodger Sherman on Jan 30, 2012 12:54 PM CST reply actions
11 guys...
i just can’t help but picture a team whose roster is composed entirely of these 11.
STARTING FIVE
PG – Ivan Peljusic
SG – Nikola Baran
SF – Davide Curlett
PF – Kyle Rowley
C – Mike Thompson
by Rodger Sherman on Jan 30, 2012 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This team would foul out in five minutes
and rack up 12 traveling calls between them.
Overestimated the time on the floor
Underestimated the travels.
by MNWildcat on Jan 30, 2012 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Carmody once described Peljusic thusly
“He looks like Fred Flintstone with that body he’s got. He’s like a rectangle.”
i think that was meant as a compliment.
by firebillcarmody on Jan 30, 2012 1:22 PM CST reply actions
Where you been FBC?
I’ve been carrying the banner for you, but your website isn’t updated. What happened my man?
Don’t worry, there aren’t too many Carmody supporters left and hopefully it will end soon.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
out of curiosity
Loretta (and others), who would you say is the best out of these guys? Thompson? ten points and five rebounds seems pretty legit.
i guess by default
but he only played 13 games
were definitely some questions about his effort and heart, as sec 112 alluded to
The scary thing is...
Over the entire course of their career, you could legitimately argue that Mirkovic was the best. Maybe not single season, but very few in that list contributed meaningfully for more than one year, and of those who did, look how many Loretta refers to as being softer than Mirkovic.
for sure
going into this season luka was the clear best
I think he'll still wind up that way.
I feel like I’m still a little hungover off that Curletti MSU game. He’s regressed fast, and I honestly (if Luka had the boot off) don’t think we’d see any difference from the start of this season.
One disagreement about Vince Scott
I’ve always contended his best game was his first game against Colorado and David Harrison. He was aggressive, defensively tough … and the one that always gets me … a leader on defense. He was barking out screens and other vital instructions. This was a freshman and he looked great.
You don’t see a freshman do that, then – poof!! – it suddenly disappears. I never saw that again – not even in the next game. That was coached out of him as i think many aspects of his game were.
Are you implying that...
…Carmody actually recruits well and coaches poorly? Wow, I would take it, but haven’t heard that much.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
Well, i was in the middle of that argument below, but let me start it here.
I’m not saying he’s the greatest recruiter in the world. But I’ve said for years that he’s definately upgraded the talent – and here’s the one that nobody calls me out on – THE TALENT THAT WALKS ON CAMPUS.
I could go more into that, but let’s do it simply. Look at the list of names Loretta has provided. Think about your first impressions of many of them – Scott, thompson, Mirk, Cote. This group should not have bombed as much as they have.
I’m not looking for an all-B10 guy. At this point, I’m looking for center who can play defense, rebound and that ever-lasting Carmody quality – the excitement of someone who can handle the ball (because of course only big men in the PO can handle the ball).
Even with that minimal criteria, the Carmodyettes have not been able to fulfill those minimal expectations. That’s coaching.
Let’s also not forget that Carmody basically thought he didn’t need B10 size at the center position for the first five years of his tenure.
interesting.
I think an argument can be made that at the five position, Carmody has underperformed with decent talent at times – look at the recruits he brought in and hype surrounding Rowley. At other positions, I’d say its the other way around – completely unheralded talent, mediocre results.
by Rodger Sherman on Jan 30, 2012 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Wow.
Sec. 112, you are right, there is a lack of development/coaching by Carmody. Hell, in some ways, Mirk looks more lost out there than his ability should, is he overthinking?
That is my opinion on Cobb, he’s a great player (based on high school), but everytime I see him play, he looks lost like he is overthinking and looking over to Carmody for direction. Carmody’s SUPER quick hook has many players afraid to make a mistake, so they are more tentative than aggressive.
Funny thing is that it is NU’s ABSURDLY long hook of Carmody that has allowed him to stay here, I wish he would show the same patience in some of his players.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
Actually wouldn't make that argument for Rowley
His St. Mary’s experience is showing us his talent level. I’m not sure there’s much Carmody could have done with that.
But who in their right mind thought he would be a good center for this offense?
To be honest, I don't blame them for Rowley.
You have to take a chance on his size and potential since he was so young/new to basketball. It didn’t work out, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take from time to time.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
The maddening thing about the center position
First of all, nice article, Loretta. This is something that should have been highlighted for years. Why?
It’s absolutely the most important position in the bloody PO – the whole focus of this staff. It’s the position that opens all the passing lanes. it’s the position that pulls out the defense.
Without a reasonable big man, it’s too easy for the defense to clog the lanes and force 3s. Sound familiar?
Everything the man does revolves around the PO. It’s what his reputation is built on. And yet, this staff has not been able to find/coach one player to play it at a B10 level. And that goes for the defensive side of the ball also.
I’m not looking for Jared Sullinger. I’m looking for any number of Wisconsin big men, even ones who can’t score but can play defense. I think we’re having a completely different conversation about NU basketball right now if Carmody knew how to develop a big man or adjust his offense due to the lack of PO big men.
With a brother and sister who went to Georgetown...
… a team that I would consider as the most successful PO-like team, it seems that year after year they have someone step up in the middle and do at the very least the bare minimum that you suggest. At best they have guys like Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe – guys who might be NBA all-stars in the future.
John Thompson III, another Princeton grad and coach, seems to understand the need to have good big men, and seems to work with them. This year’s center, Henry Sims, was oft criticized for not having enough investment in the team. It’s clear coach Thompson had some talks with him, based on his occasional ribbings and complisults delivered by Thompson to Sims in the post-game presser. In short, unlike Carmody, Thompson seems to adjust his coaching style based on the psychology (and abilities) of his players.
My bro was at the Creighton game and was surprised at how quickly that Carmody remove Luka from the game after a single bad possession.
I think it’s hard to put this failure on anyone BUT Carmody. You would think that in 12+ years of Carmody’s tenure, Carmody would meet a player that he connected with and whom he could coach up.
I feel that the end is near.
This team isn’t going anywhere, and hopefully the lack of buzz/attendance registers with Jim P and forces his hand.
It is hard to think that anything will change going forward. Sure, there is a recruit here/there, but nothing that is a solid class.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 30, 2012 9:26 PM CST up reply actions
For the record
we do have at least three consecutive sellouts. And before you go complaining about how the whole upper half has been ILL/MSU/PU, (1) I don’t think that’s true at all, from my observations, and (2) I’ve actually been pretty impressed with the NU attendance, cheering, and student support.
But your opinions on the end being near are noted. I would just separate them from “lack of buzz/attendance”.
"before you go complaining"
is a little unfair. Rather, just take point (2), lest I start setting up men of straw.
Gotcha.
I’m glad to hear that there are fans still showing up, and I hear you about point 2. Just frustrating.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 31, 2012 7:47 AM CST up reply actions
The next game will tell a lot
I already gave my ticket to the people that sit next to me because I have another engagement. Honestly it’s an engagement that I COULD have moved but in this case I just couldn’t muster the enthusiasm to see NU take on UN-L. I’m also not too enthusiastic about the upcoming games vs. Ioa, Minnesota, and Michigan. It’s sad that it’s come to this, but at 2-6 I’m reaching the “I’ve got better things to do” mindset.
It's interesting to see
how many ticketholders will do exactly what you did. I guess I can understand the sentiment that it’d normally be tough to get in any way enthused for basketball against Nebraska, but I like the first-time aspect of this game.
But yeah, I wouldn’t be shocked to see apathy creeping in. You’re exactly right.
Yeah...
And the thing that is extra sad is I’m pretty sure I’m one of the main target groups that they’ve been shooting for recently: Chicago resident, non-grad, relatively young (upper 20’s), willing to post on message boards (okay maybe those last two aren’t targets). I’ve only got a single season ticket but there are a ton of reasons piling up for me to consider using that money for something else next year.
And by "non-grad" I meant I went to a different (DIII) school, not that I failed to graduate from NU
I just love me some B1G basketball.
I wish there
were more people willing to spend money on a ticket like you.
What, in your mind, would be a good enough reason to actually keep your ticket? More or less of what I’m asking is what does NU Athletics (perhaps not even basketball) need to do to keep you?
(also, did you go to the open practice last night?)
Well...
I think a proper answer to that may require a little more time, I’ll wait until I go on lunch break :-)
And no, I was unable to attend the practice last night because I had a doctor’s appointment. I didn’t even know about the practice until they sent the e-mail out a few days ago. If I known a little earlier in advance I may have been able to make the appt for a different day, but oh well.
Okay here is a longer answer that I am doing over my lunch hour
1. WIN! Seriously, it seems cliche to say that, but it’s true. Like NU c/o 2002 said before, if the Cats were 6-2 going into Thursday I’d be there 100% of the time. But alas, they’re not.
But since you asked, I DO think there a few things that are more in the control of the athletic department that could help.
2. Welsh-Ryan. I like W-R for it’s charm. I love that the students are on top of the court. I love how loud it can get when sold out and rocking. HOWEVER, There are soooooo many things that are bad about W-R as well. Sitting on my couch with a cold beer and HDTV is sometimes more appealing than W-R. Plus if I DVR I can get about 30 minutes of productivity in, then start watching late and skip commercials.
2a. My biggest gripe is my actual seat. And I sit in the 200-level purple seats! I can’t even imagine sitting on the bleachers. Actually I did sit in the bleachers once and it was horrible. I have chronic back problems (yes, in my 20’s. Woe is me.) and I’m 6 foot 3. The seats do not have enough leg room for me, but that is not a problem that is exclusive to W-R for me. I am in the first row of the 200 level so there is literally a large purple bar directly where my eyes look, and my knees are in constant contact with a lower metal bar. I have to slouch lower to get a better view of the game and not stare at the purple railing the whole time, but then my back hurts. If I stand too often people will yell at me to sit down (sad but true). My seats are also close to the stairs. Every time a person goes up or down the stairs they walk in front of me. Often people selling stuff will stop and stand at the top of the stairs looking for a sale, completely blocking my view. The people in my section and I will yell at them and they’ll move, but often it’s too late and I miss a play. You may say “change your seat!” and I’ve tried for two consecutive years. Maybe if I had a different seat I’d be better off, but I guess they still can’t find a single empty seat in the purple section to move me to. Maybe I need to give more to the Wildcat Fund. If it’s a lowly attended non-con game I will occasionally sit somewhere else. You may say “if you have back problems and are too tall, maybe live sporting events aren’t for you!” and to that I say, I can go to a Bulls or Sox game, or even a UIC/Loyola game, without these problems.
2b. Scoreboard. I know that in reading the Rivals board, LTP, SoP, etc, that it is very unlikely that there will be a new scoreboard anytime soon, considering the grand facilities plan that is under way. But it sure would be nice to see a replay or something beyond the “Big Ten Stat Leaders” and the occasional out of town score.
2b. Bathrooms/Concessions. When there are a decent number of people at the game the lines for the bathrooms are annoyingly long during halftime. On the 200 level the lines flow directly into a separate line for the concessions. People don’t know where to stand or what line they are even in half the time. All the congestion backs up people leaving the seating area. The men’s bathroom on the 200 level is not set up to flow traffic whatsoever. Half the time you practically have to push your way out. I’ve never seen it needed, but the handicapped stall is all the way in the back, down a long cramped aisle. If you had a wheelchair I can’t even imagine how horrible that would be.
2c. TV’s. During halftime I’d love to be able to watch a different game on a monitor somewhere. From what I understand, the courtside people can go into the NClub during halftime to lounge around, and there are TV’s there. I’d pay extra for this priviledge (maybe not enough though), but I don’t think I even have the option unless I want courtside seats. Anyway, I shouldn’t have to pay extra for a TV or two anyway!
Funny thing is, W-R has gotten much better in the three years I’ve had tickets! They added some good things (the electronic scorer’s table, the banners, the extra scoreboards on the sides). They’ve also added some dumb things (the blimp, the smoke when the team runs out). But all in all it has gotten better. The halftime shows and timeout games are sometimes okay (I’m going to be sad to miss Red Panda, who is the best), but often they are quite bad as well (Captain Juggles, the shopping cart game, etc).
3. Coach. I’m not a Carmody-basher but I do think 12 years is a long time. The Big Ten record speaks for itself. I think it’s particularly sad that the team does not have a full roster of scholarship players, so injuries are really a killer. Carmody seems to be able to draw up some great out of bounds plays, but can’t seem to get an end-of-game situation to go right. That’s all I’ll say about the coach.
4. Fans. I don’t want to call out my fellow fans too much. But in the purple seats, it’s mostly older people. Some are enthusiastic, some are not. A lot of people in my area just chat about whatever for the whole game. There will be one minute left in a tie game and they’ll be talking about the weather. WTF is that? Nobody stands for anything in my section except for when they bring out the soldier during one of the timeouts. As someone with back problems I do understand why some don’t stand more often, but most of these people do not have health problems. Also, there are two larg-ish groups of season ticket holders nearby that either give or sell their tickets to opposing fans. I really don’t want to sit by opposing fans. If I can’t come to the game I’m going to give the tickets to somebody that is going to be an NU fan, or I’ll just eat the ticket. (it would probably be easier for me to justify selling if I had 2 tickets and could sell at a big premium though, I’ll admit)
Some of these things the athletic department could help with, some they can’t. I DO keep seeing small snippets of progress at W-R, and I guess I DO keep seeing small snippets of progress when it comes to progession in the NIT. But honestly, I could watch NU get to the NIT from home and I’d probably be just as happy.
Sorry if this all comes off as whiny, that wasn’t my intention.
by Nirvana91 on Jan 31, 2012 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Doesn't come off as whiny at all...
I think a lot of fans share your sentiment – there have been many comments about the purple seat crowd and lack of amenities in the past. There have certainly been more comments about lack of winning. Thanks for sharing.
Not at all, this is fantastic.
And I’m incredibly thankful now, if I wasn’t before, that I get my student seats.
I hope you’ve contacted the ticket office with these things (or would consider that), as you do represent that demographic they’re trying to attract to the games. I’m sure your opinion would be valued highly (and possibly could be parlayed into compensation from Athletics).
Fantastic Post Nirvana.
I know many fans that would agree w/majority of what you’ve stated.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 31, 2012 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Another thumbs up from another non-grad STH
I hope NU is somehow paying attention to this because I sit in a completely different area, and I agree with everything, Nirvana. I have the same experience and get the same feeling for the atmosphere.
I’ve had my tickets forever, and I’m with Nirvana. I simply keep them because I love B10 hoops. It’s not anything that NU does. If I ever thought about the hours spent/benefit ratio, I would have been long gone. The lack of caring (for lack of a better word) by the fans and administration drives me batty.
If I could summarize everything Nirvana listed, it simply screams that NU doesn’t care. The whole WR experience just says give us our money and move along.
How do you improve the whole thing? In my eyes, it’s pretty easy. Start by asking yourself if the whole off-court thing is comparable to the Kane County Cougars. Off the court, this is a business you should have a presentation AT LEAST as good as a minor league organization. NU isn’t in the ballpark.
by Sec.112 on Jan 31, 2012 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
On the continuum of experiences, WR/Ryan Field rank on par with my high school
The Century Link center (formerly Qwest Center) in Omaha that Creighton plays in is much closer to (for example) the Verizon Center or the United Center than it is to WR. Creighton also manages to fill said building up, even though it is twice the capacity of WR. And all the seats in the lower bowl are of superior quality to the Purple section (and they don’t have any bleachers). Nice area around the stadium too, hotels, restaurants, bars and the like.
Sec 112, you are absolutely right about it screaming that NU doesn’t care. If they did, they could get something done with Evanston and build a state of the art arena in that funny shaped block between Sherman & Orrington/ Church & Davis. IF NU was willing to pay taxes on sales to games, and let 3rd party vendors serve concessions there, I would think that the city would like having an influx of people to the downtown Evanston restaurants without the large crowds invading the neighborhood where WR currently sits.
I’m sure there are a million complications but I would think it’s someone’s job in the athletic dept. to figure that out.
theres gonna be no on there thursday
meh opponent combined with 6 PM local time tip off is not a good combination
Quick thought on this topic.
I do think that Nirvana has a point about the younger, message board fan’s (shows a commitment to the team) apathy is telling to me, b/c when you lose your fans for a home Big Ten game, that’s when you know you have hit rock bottom.
I agree, Nebraska + 6pm tip is not an ideal combination, but if this team were 6-2 heading into this game, people would want to show up.
by NU Alumni - Class of 2002 on Jan 31, 2012 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
At the Purdue game
They put up an announcement about discounted tickets to the Nebraska game on the big display thing (pretty sure I can’t legally call that plus-sized Lite-Brite a Jumbotron).
So act now! These prices are so low they’re crazy!
by bangnblame on Jan 31, 2012 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
(pretty sure I can’t legally call that plus-sized Lite-Brite a Jumbotron)
Though, really, it’s just part of the underwhelming ambiance of W-R.
In reality
I find it somewhat endearing. The new sideline screen is also a nice touch.
I didn't realize
There were so many non NU attending (past or current) fans like me on this board! I have always felt a little strange rooting so passionately for a school I do not attend and have no affiliation with, but growing up in Chicagoland and loving Big Ten football turned me into a diehard fan.
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